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Creation time: May 27,2025 05:06:35 PM

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Ki-suk (00:00)

All right. Thank you, everyone. For those who are attending the Toast Securities Invest 25, and I'd like to say a special thanks to the Ken Fisher, the one of the world's most renowned investment group, and the figure deeply respected by the investor globally, including and especially here in South Korea. Thank you for joining us, Toast Securities Invest 25, Ken. Can you kindly introduce yourself to a little bit to our audience today? Well, thank you very much for the introduction. And thanks for having me here today. It's a pleasure and an honor. Before doing that, let me just say that congratulations to Toss Securities for putting this conference on as an inaugural conference. And congratulations to all of you that are attending. Because educating yourself more about how investments work, how markets work, and how you fit into that, and how you don't fit into that, whatever and all of that that will be for you, is in fact the best way to do better with your investments. And so I congratulate you for participating in this. Me, I'm an old salty dog. I'm 74 years old. I've been in the investment business for a little over a half century. Started in 1972, just before the big bear market of 1972, two, three, four, and founded a firm some few years later that today is a fairly large firm managing a little over $300 billion US in global securities operating around the world with some 6,000 plus employees. I've spent a lot of my life trying to do what you're doing today, which is learning more about how markets work in ways that people don't fully necessarily understand and more about where I sit into all that. And at my age, I'm still doing that. It's a never ending process. And let me just make one more point. When I was young a long time ago, Warren Buffett said that this is a realm of endeavor where if you end up being right 70% of the time in the long run, you become a living legend. So you better be used to the fact that you're still wrong a lot fully 30% of the time. And the goal is to be more right than wrong. And the way you become more right than wrong is exactly what you're doing today. The fact of the matter is, when I was young, I also was enamored with boxing. I'm not really a sports person. I haven't been since I was a boy. But when I was enamored with boxing, I did a little of it. I was OK. I wasn't great. But in the process of that, I learned that you've got to be able to be hit and keep going. And in markets, nothing works all the time. There is nobody that knows everything and is always right. Your goal is to be right more than wrong. And the key to being right more than wrong in an overarching sense, that people have a hard time getting in their bones, is to somehow some way know things that other people don't seem to know. Ei

ther facts, how markets work. People think this causes that, but they don't. And you know why. And all of that comes from studying and learning. So again, I encourage you to not just today, but for the rest of your lives, engage in this process of learning about how markets work better and more, and realizing that you will make mistakes and that making mistakes is OK, because the goal is not to be perfect. The goal is to be right more than wrong. And if you are right more than wrong, you'll be very successful. Thank you very much, Ken, for really sharing a lot of wisdom for the investor, for tool securities. You mentioned about the market is continuously evolving. At the same time, there are a lot of things to learn for the investors. So it's important to continuously participating and learn from the market. But at this moment, there are a lot of uncertainty has been boiling around right now. So especially for the global tariff situation. So we want to know about how will the Trump's tariff impact the US stock for the remainder of 2025, and which US sector or ETF could be the worst looking at for the tool securities investors to navigate uncertainty. And just want to share, it will be great if you can share your broader outlook for the US stock market moving forward. So first, and I'm delighted to do that, and it's a very good question, but first let me say that the right way

to think about all this stuff always, and this is true whether you're an American or South Korean, and oh, by the way, I love South Korea. I've got to have South Korean grandchildren, four of them, and I love all things about South Korea. But wherever you're from, it doesn't really matter. The most important thing to do always is not to think about how will the American market do, or how will the South Korean market do, but to first think about how will the world do, and think global first and your own country second. Because the way the world goes will impact hugely what happens to your own country and to other countries, and understanding how those pieces fit together is critical to getting it right. So to the question, first, there's always uncertainty. If there's not uncertainty, that's really scary. When people don't think there's uncertainty, it's a bad thing. Uncertainty is fear, and fear in the market is a good thing, and fear of a false factor is always bullish, and excess fear of something that's bad but not as bad as people expect it to be is also bullish. It's when people are overly optimistic that it's bearish. So having said that, tariffs are bad, they're always bad. There's no exception to that. They're a form of dislocating tax that not only puts burden on a consumer, but dislocates supply chains, makes firms operate in ways they didn't operate previously, whic

h is costly to adjust to. In that, tariffs are always bad, but they're always worse for the country that imposes them than the country they're imposed upon. It's a basic lesson from history that most people don't particularly assume. From that, you get what is evident in the market this year, which is that the United States, which in the last two years, 2023 and 2024 was the number one performing stock market in the world for those two years, is now operating depending on which currency you measure in between number 38 and number 42 out of the 47 countries and the MSCI all world index. The United States market is lagging badly. Now, there's a couple of points about that that are important t

o understand also. You mentioned the sectoral makeup. And when you think of sectors, if a sector is gonna do better, countries that are strong in that sector do better. If a sector is gonna do badly, countries that are big in that sector tend to lag just because of the weighting of the country market, big or small in the sector. So in the United States over those last two years, depending on exactly when you're measuring, technology was 36 to 44% of the US stock market. And therefore, when tech would do well as it did in those two years, it makes the United States do particularly well as a country market. Countries that were very value oriented tended to lag in those for the same reason. In

this period, for a whole series of reasons, value stocks around the world are doing a little better than tech stocks, which are lagging. And in that, that contributes to the US lag. But when you think about, and we could talk about some of those reasons if you want later on, but if you think about it, a big part of that itself is the tariffs. And as I said, tariffs are always bad. They're worse for the country that imposes them than the country they're imposed upon. Other countries, and in the case of the United States, you can see this, but it applies even more so with other countries. When you impose tariffs, they impact everything that goes on in manufacturing and product consumption of

manufactured goods in your country. But the rest of the world, which is three times the size of the US economy, can keep trading amongst themselves. So it impacts them less than it impacts the country that has the tariffs. And that relative size function is actually critical in understanding the fact that said simply the country that imposes the tariffs are always impacted more than the rest of the world and the other countries. So this is a year for non-US to lead that should continue. Donald Trump's policies are not good, even if he simply wanted tariffs, because as you read the news, makes an announcement. A few days later, he changes the announcement. A few days later, he changes somethi

ng else. Then he changes another thing, changes this, changes that. And that on, off, on, off, up, down, left, right, sideways, and off into outer space, some crazy place, is a level of raising uncertainty. And one of the most basic lessons about stocks is stocks hate rising uncertainty, and they love falling uncertainty. It's not the absolute level of uncertainty that matters, but whether the uncertainty will rise or fall. And even this last week, Donald Trump said, and I'm sure you've read in the news, that he was going to impose 50% tariffs on the EU countries starting on June 1st. I can't remember if it was June 1st or June 2nd, but the beginning of June. And then yesterday, or the day

before, that he announced he was going to move that to July. And what will he do when we get close to July? No one knows, and probably he doesn't either. And that's part of the uncertainty problem. Yeah, it is true. So there's a lot of uncertainties going around and thanks for sharing your thought. I want to take the importance of the relative level changes in uncertainty. That is a definitely investor. You need to focus more when they invest into the stock market. I just want to give a little more to deeper into the AI and tech names because there has been a lot of debating for US exceptionalism nowadays. Despite of the uncertainty, there are the strong belief among the Asian or the other

investors that the US stock may having somewhat exceptional the cases. So for example, like the Nvidia and Tesla, those two stock has been the most bought and hold by the Asian and the current investors, including the TOS securities as well. And you were bullish on the AI and Nvidia and what is your perspective on those AI driven sectors like including Tesla, Nvidia and or including some cloud computing, etc, etc. Do you expect the despite of those the tariff uncertainty, those are tech names or some selective tech names are still worse for the investing in. That's a great question. And let me step back and try to take things sort of 37,000 feet. On the one hand, it is absolutely true that w

hen it comes to technology, America tends to dominate. And that's consistent with what I mentioned earlier about the high percentage of the U.S. stock market that is one version or another of tech stocks or tech-like consumer services companies like Facebook and Google, whatever. Now, let me put that in a different perspective. If you look at the companies with market caps of 100 billion U.S. or more, and you ask, when were they created as an entity? All of the ones that are less than 50 years old, almost perfectly with only a couple of exceptions, are American. That's the American exceptionalism. And that will continue to be true. But remember something different also, which is that if you

went back from the year 2000, you had a good seven years where tech lagged badly, even though the exceptional companies of the day that had already been created and were already public and were already trading and doing phenomenal things, including some of what are now the so-called Magnificent Seven, were already publicly traded and already been doing very well in the 1990s, and then lagged in those years for long enough to drive most people crazy. The fact that that exists, that America is so good and prone to do exceptional things in tech and tech-like areas, is partly because whenever you have exceptional companies physically close to other exceptional companies, there tends to be a sha

ring that goes on between them by happenstance, between the people that allows them to be stronger than if they were isolated in a country far, far away from the other companies that are doing exceptional things. Let me give you an example of that going way back in history. If you take the all important, or not all important, but extraordinarily important invention of the integrated circuit, it was co-invented at the same time by Bob Noyce, who was to go on to become one of the two co-founders of Intel, and Jack Kilby, who was senior scientist of Texas Instruments. That's that adjacency effect I was referencing. So America continued to have that, but that does not mean that the stocks in a g

iven time period lead or lag. That's a different function. This is a period where tech is not leading the world, and it will continue through this year. Now, that does not mean that every single tech stock does not do well, and tech is not lagging badly, but this is a year where value stocks lead. Let me give you an example of that. If you just take the last 12 months, and most people in Korea would not think about this, most people in America don't think about this, European bank stocks have done much better than the Magnificent Seven. It's a simple fact because circumstances have changed over those 12 months to hugely benefit the European bank stocks, and stocks are reflecting that even th

ough most people don't think about what would cause that. In fact, bank stocks around the world are doing pretty well, the European bank stocks are doing particularly well. Over the course of that year, where Magnificent Seven was hugely excited, European bank stocks did even better. This year, European bank stocks are doing better. I revert to my prior statement. This is a time period where AI ... Now, let me speak to AI for a second. AI is a great thing, but just like the internet after the year 2000, a lot of the great stocks that would do these things can sometimes lag. And Nvidia, great company. Now, Tesla is different than Nvidia because Nvidia actually creates technology. Tesla is mo

re like a consumer discretionary stock that's very good at utilizing technology as opposed to creating technology. When Jack Kilby and Bob Neusch were inventing the integrated circuit, they were creating technology. They were creating technology that would then become useful to other people. Tesla is not actually a technology creator, it's a technology utilizer and there's a lot of great companies that do that. In fact, there's a lot more companies that become good at utilizing technology than always, than good at creating technology and it's important to make that distinction because similarly Google and Facebook and so many of these companies are technology utilizers. If you just think ab

out things now, like when the crazy Americans are crazy, Americans are just prone to come up with a crazy idea where everybody thinks it's stupid and it'll never work but in fact and most of them don't but some few of them do and then they change the world. So all around the world today there are imitators of Uber which is the biggest car sharing, ride sharing company. When Uber started, most people would think that was crazy but it works and there's plenty of imitators and imitators in America and all across the world but that's not a technology creator, that's a technology user that utilizes it to create a service for people that changes the world and does something better than nobody ever

did before and that's wonderful but my point goes back to tech as a time and as a non-time. Okay, thank you. Thank you very much again. So I just want to add one kind of a sub question on that like the technology creator versus technology utilization companies. It all depends on the time or the valuation or the different metrics, but may I ask you normally which part of the companies you prepare more? Which side of companies? I mean, growth versus value. No, technology creator versus technology utilization company. Oh, I don't think. And how do I say this? So I have three sons. I have six grandchildren. I've got one wife that I've had for 54 years. I have no favorite sons and no favorite g

randchildren. I love them all. They're all different. Now, are there stocks I don't care for? Of course. Are there sectors at a given point in time that I don't care for? Of course. But it is not like there are many more technology users of consumer discretionary products and consumer services than there are technology creators. But I have no preference for one over the other. Let me give you a preference that I have. Similarly, when you think of growth stocks or value stocks, the first thing to think through is to say, what is the gross operating profit margin of the company? Now that's sales minus cost of goods sold. Value companies typically have small gross operating profit margins in

the range of anywhere from 10% to 35%. Growth companies typically have fat gross operating profit margins ranging from about 45% to 65%. Now here comes the magical part. There's a lot of companies with seeming promise. People believe in the magic of what they're doing. They have fat gross operating profit margins, but they don't actually grow very much. And that means there's something wrong there. It could be that bad management. It could be the product really not as good as competitors and the world hasn't really figured that out in a deterministic way. But in reality, the first thing to do is say, is this value company or is this a growth company? If it's a value company, you want to trea

t it like it's a value company and you want to think about valuations and you want to think about cyclicality and whether this company will do better ahead than people think because it's a better economic environment for it or not. Value companies cannot grow at a high rate and they're dependent on both bank financing and the economy to grow. Growth companies are not dependent on valuations to do well. They're not dependent on financing sources to do well. But if they have that gross operating profit margin and they will if they're growth companies, then they also have to be able to have the gross operating profit margin and grow. And that's what separates some of them from others. So you wa

nt to look for one that has gross operating profit margin that's in that 45% to 65% range, sales minus cost of goods sold that you see off the balance sheet, off the income statement. And then you want to be able to see that over the last few years, it's been growing at a pretty good rate like maybe 20% plus, maybe even more. The difference is whether they actually can take the market's current expectations of what they think is the prospects for that product line or service line and turn it into growth over the next few years. Thank you very much for sharing. I want to add a little bit more on the question. There's so many books of the word you wrote are famous in Korea, but one of the mos

t famous book is The Beta Crowd. And in the book, you emphasize about how smarting the hurt or the leveraging the investor's behavior. And based on your observation at this moment in the close to the close end of the May, 2025, which part of the or the reach tool of the market metrics should those security investors need to focus to identify the undervalued staff to find investment opportunity to The Beta Crowd. Oh, that's a great question. And it's always a great question. It's a great question every year. But let me say that it's never a question for all time, because in the long term, things phase in and out of favor. And what's going to work this year may or may not work next year. And y

ou have to look at that kind of one year at a time as you move forward. So what I'm about to say and what I've been saying is never about a long-term forecast. I just want to be clear about that. Secondarily, this year, the features that are the part that's most underappreciated, and therefore, let me go on tangent for a second. Valuation by itself is never predictive of stock direction. Valuation by itself is something that is so widely known at a point in time that it's already priced into securities. It is not something that if you said this is a low PE stock or this is a high PE stock, the marketplace knows that broadly. This is a sector with a low PE or a high PE or price to book or pr

ice to sales or dividend yield. The market knows that. It's always that by itself, it's what isn't priced in that makes the difference always. So in this year, there's a couple of features that you can see. The economies, particularly the big ones that haven't been doing well over the last few years where sentiment has been very dour, are actually doing better than people have expected and will continue to do better than people expected. And that helps the value companies more than the growth companies because the value companies are dependent on the economy and on financing. The other part that goes with that, that people don't seem to think through very fully, and I'm just going to sidest

ep in history for just a few years. In 2022, as the year progressed, the so-called yield curve or the shift in short-term interest rates to long-term interest rates, where normally short-term interest rates are below long-term interest rates, and there's a continuum from 90-day government bills out to 10-year government notes, is upward sloping like that. And in that, that was always, if it was steeply upward sloping, seen as bullish. And sometimes short rates would rise relative to long rates, and that would be called inverting this, which is referred to as the yield curve. That's deemed to be bearish and recessionary. And yet, a little bit like people driving a car looking at the instrumen

t panel on the car, by 2022, that had worked well enough long enough that people just looked at the dashboard on the car and didn't think about what was going on under the hood that the instrument was supposed to reflect on the dashboard. And so when that stopped working in 2022, and the yield curve did invert, and everyone said, we're going to have serious recession, but we didn't, people just kind of scratched their heads and said, I don't know what's going on here, but that thing's broken. It's not working anymore. It's like that time that the thing told me that my oil pressure was no good on my car, but my oil pressure was just fine on my car. I can't pay attention to that thing anymore.

So in reality, the reason that it always worked or what was going on under the hood is banks or core businesses borrowing short-term funds to finance long-term loans. This is a fundamental truth of banking that's gone on as long as banking has been around, borrow short-term funds to make long-term loans. So the spread between them is reflective of future profitability of lending, which is reflective of future quantities of lending. And if you're going to grow as an economy, you need ample lending to fund the companies that can't get financing otherwise from the stock market. When short rates get above long rates, that kills lending. This is a core central feature, and you get recession. I

t didn't work in 2022 because global central banks around the world had flooded the system with cheap money in reaction to COVID. And banks had oceans and oceans and oceans of cheap deposits that they'd accumulated in COVID and the very scary aftermath of COVID that literally scared people nearly to death in 2020 and 2021 into 2022. And from that bank kept lending because they had a very cheap, low-cost funding base. And people stopped paying attention to the yield curve. Since last year, in parts of the world, and particularly in Europe, central banks have been cutting short-term rates while long-term rates have gone up some, which has taken the yield curve and moved it from looking like t

his to being back upward sloping. This is particularly strong in Europe. But it's true around the world, and where is at least true? The United States of America, which has contributed particularly to value stocks doing well because value stocks are economy dependent and bank finance independent. They need loans to finance their growth, to buy inventory, to do capital projects, longer term loans, to do anything that's growth oriented. They can't finance that with equity because they don't have the money to grow. Growth companies have fat gross margins, they can sell stock when they want, et cetera, et cetera. So in that, that shift has focused particularly on non-US banks, non-luxury consum

er discretionary goods, and industrials. This is your question. The three parts that people don't get because they're blinded to it behaviorally are those three categories, which have been running strongest this year, and I expect will continue to run strongest this year as to 2026. We'll have to wait and see that as we get to the end of 2025. I'm pretty sure the old audience right now is making the markdown of your comments of the three sectors you are bullshitting up to 2026. I wish I can have a whole day long session speaking if you can, but due to the time constraint, I need to move on to the final question, which is the advice for the retail investors in Korea. The total securities, at

this moment, literally the largest online brokerage company in South Korea, which just started four years ago from scratch zero to the largest online broker. So it's a great amount of success story, which is backed by the millions of the young investor who wants to be the future Ken Fisher in their investment journey. Can you share with those investors that one or two of the key lessons or your advice is so that how you were able to build your wealth over the your time over the past decades, and then which could be still helpful for those young investors in Korea, able to help them to build wealth for the next couple of decades. So let me make a couple of points about that. First, there's n

o particular worthy goal in trying to become what I am. There's nothing wrong with what I am, but there's plenty of other things you can be that are fully as meritorious as just being some rich American investor guy. Secondarily, when I was very young, my first year in the investing business, I went out and I read all the investing books that I could find in the library. I read over 40 books that year. I didn't necessarily agree with everything that I read, but I'm trying at that point in time to cover the landscape and learn as much as I could as fast as I could. Since then, as I said in the introduction that I made, trying to learn how things work that other people don't fully understand

how things may work as things change ahead. For example, you talk about online securities. Well, when I started there, of course, there was no such thing. And when I started, there were a fully 2% brokerage commissions on a trade for a regular stock. And over-the-counter stocks that were bid-as spreads that were often 10% and 15% and sometimes 25% just to trade the stock. What I'm wanting to say to you is things change, but as they change, you need to keep learning more and more about how you can find things other people don't know. And let me take you to a point that I've made many, many times in public, many, many different ways, and I'm going to conclude with that. I consider the three m

ost important questions. Number one. one and above all, what can I fathom? Other people don't fathom. Think about what it is that's true that everyone else isn't talking about because that actually is not in the marketplace now. What is my brain doing to blindside me now? And this is the part that you said mentioned that's the behavioral finance portion. And then crucially important, what do I believe that's actually false? And in fact, most people believe a lot of things that are false. Most investors think about investing like it's a craft, kind of the way we treat medicine or many crafts, accounting, a lot of categories of commerce where you learn the craft, you perfect your craft like a

dentist would. And then you stick to the craft, you do not vary from the craft because that would be bad. And that this often would be somebody who believes that value stocks are always better or growth stocks are always better, or you should always have this one thing. And of course, markets see through that really quickly and keep morphing because the whole purpose of the market at one level is to keep changing, keep adapting. And your goal is to say, what do I believe that's actually false? Because if you believe that it's actually false, it's probably an awful lot of other people who do too. What can I fathom other people don't fathom, which is trying to, if you will, beat the crowd, ge

t ahead of the crowd. And three, what is my brain doing to blindside me right now? Because all of our brains have biases built into them from the time we were young and coming to understand the behavioral aspects of finance, what's otherwise known as behavioral psychology helps you learn your own blindsidedness and get over your own biases. And as you do that, you end up being a better investor. So thank you for the questions. Thank you for your interest. I've enjoyed being with you G-Suck today. And I look forward perhaps to being able to do something like this another time, either by video or in person. Right, it can. Before the close up, I just think of myself, my question was a little b

it unfair, because there are not only the young investors who came here this show as attending audience for the total security invest 25, there are definitely people who are about to have retired very soon. Many of the baby boomers of South Korea is definitely looking at this interview with you as well. I think the key message is maybe similar, but if you have any additional comments or advice for those about retire or in the phase of retirements in South Korea. So, you know, my firm's business is mostly dealing with older people because as a general role in life, and I don't mean this to be demeaning to young people, but older people have saved a lot for a long time, so they tend to have m

ore money than younger people. And those who are either in retirement or facing retirement typically make one biggest mistake. The biggest mistake that they make is to be too conservative because they underestimate how long they'll live. And let me talk to you about that in this way. And that's a great question, by the way, because it's something that I see very commonly. But said simply, most people, when they get to retirement age, say to themselves, now I should be safe because I've been saving money all this time while I'm working, but my income's going to fall now that I'm not working, and I need to be careful with this money and not take risk. And so they want to be overly careful. An

d here's the way to think about that. Let's say you're 65, and let's say you're married, and your spouse is 60. That would not be extraordinary or typically very unusual. And now you say, I'm going to be very conservative and keep my money in cash, cash like securities or bonds that don't pay much. Well, generations after generations, and this is particularly true,in in Korea of my one of my grandchildren's grandmothers is asleep in our house right now. Korean born in Korea came to America. Korean American. My daughter-in-law, Korean American. Um, but my grandchildren's grandmother, this Korean American, not my wife on the other side, uh, is living longer than her parents lived, will not liv

e as long as her daughter will live and her daughter will not live as long, my daughter-in-law as my grandchildren will live. And it is very common today to live up into your eighties or even nineties. And particularly if your parents and your grandparents were relatively long lived compared to theirs and you take care of yourself and don't do all the stupid stuff that a lot of people do, drink themselves to death, smoke themselves to death, et cetera. You live another 30 years after your, after your spouse is 60 and the most brutal thing you can do to your spouse when you're old is to subject them to poverty. So therefore, if you think about 20 and 30 year time horizons, you can't find a t

ime period that's 20 or 30 years long where stocks didn't do better than bonds. As soon as you see you've got that long a time horizon, you say, I want to be careful in my stock investing, but I want to get equity returns because I need my money to last that long. And if I die before then, it didn't make any difference. Because if I die before then, I had plenty of money. I had plenty of money. If I do that in the longterm, if you just take rolling time periods in history, and this is going to be true, whether you're looking at American stocks, British stocks, two longest countries. So we have very accurate detailing history of or other markets where we have shorter history and you go out in

longer time frames, stocks do better and better compared to bonds. Academics want to think about risk as short term volatility, but if you've got 20 or 30 years, short term volatility is not your issue. If you've got 20 or 30 years, what you want to know is how much how much might I have at the end of that time period? And if you're the man married to the younger woman, here does a good chance you die before she does, because that's just the way it works most of the time. And you need to think about her time horizon, not your own. So my point to the people that are retired or retiring is you need to become conservative a lot, lot, lot, lot older and later than you think you do right now, be

cause for a really long time, you're going to find stocks doing better than bonds again. And that's been my view for a long time. It's been true for a long time and it will continue to be true for a long time. Thank you very much, Ken. This is definitely the eye opening or awakening the comments that you share for the Asian investors, including the South Korea. I believe that your sharing of your wisdom today is definitely make the Toast Ambassador 25 specialty special. So thank you very much once again for sharing your time. I hope to see you. Oh, sorry. one more point. Sure. Yes. I presume many of the attendees know that I write a monthly column in chosen a weekly biz. And I have for six

years, and we'll continue to. I love doing that. So you know, my views about a lot of these things as they evolve and change, I'm expressing there. And I'd be delighted if anybody from the this conference wants to read them, all you got to do go online at chosen weekly biz and you get my views. Thank you very much, Ken, for sharing your wisdom today. I believe that your comment and wisdom is definitely making a TOAS investor 25 event very special for this especially day. So we're looking forward to see you again. And then I was really truly grateful to having with you. Thank you very much, Ken. Thank you. I think it was okay. Thank you so much, careful, and staying up late gives up as well

. Well done. Yeah, you know, good luck with that. I hope your conference works well. Yeah. And we'll follow up after the conference. We'll take a few pictures and share with your team just to show how it went. Okay, that'd be great, just send it all to Naj. Right. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you so much everyone. Have a good one. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you very much. Thank you.